Tuesday, June 07, 2005

A champion solution

Any solution that leads to Liverpool's UEFA Champions League qualification for next season while not compromising Everton's place is the correct solution.

Liverpool will find out within the next two days whether they will be given a UEFA Champions League place for next season by the Union of European Football Associations executive committee, since they are European champions yet in the ridiculous situation at the moment whereby they cannot defend their title due to finishing outside the qualifying places in the English Premier League.

As far as I am concerned, Liverpool deserve to be given a qualifying place, but not at the expense of Everton, because every English club was under the notion of that the top four placed received Champions League qualification, which also means the blue side of Merseyside should not go through any silly qualifying play-off against fifth-placed Liverpool or anything of the sort.

Allowing five English clubs into the 2005/2006 UEFA Champions League would be the ideal solution, and by all means the fairest.


At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:21:00 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Disagree . . .

Liverpool should not be allowed into the CL. To allow them in with have an impact on another club and will also cost the other English clubs millions as the money would have to be split between 5 teams not 4.

The rules are rules and every team knew them at the beginning of the season. You cannot change a competitions rules during the competition.

Liverpool didn't seem bothered about the CL when they were losing to Southampton, Birmingham and Arsenal in the final weeks. They only have themselves to blame.

Sorry . . . seems unfair but to allow them in WILL impact another club and that is even more unfair.

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:44:00 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the rules are the rules then it is the FA that changed the rules to let Everton in to the CL preliminary rounds. Fact is, if Chelsea or Arsenal had have been in Liverpool's position last year then Liverpool would have been pushed into the UEFA cup. So, FA changed their policy for Everton.

But rules won't decide this issue. This is football. It'll come down to passion and money, not rules and bureaucracy. Which is to say, desire and money preside over rules and bureaucracy - not the other way around.

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 4:16:00 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your points does not seem to hold water.

Money split between 4 teams instead of 5 teams... IMO the millions would be evened out with the inclusion of the defending champions as having the defending champions would generate MORE income 'total' in the POOL and definitely NOT the SAME amount. It would be quite unfair to say that having splitting the 'pool' money between 5 teams makes each team take a smaller piece of the pie while at the same time suggesting that the pie in total would STILL be the same size even with the defending champions generating much much more interest and income. Maybe a 'little' less but definitely, no one can underestimate the amount of interests and income that having the LFC as defending champions will generate.

About 'rules are rules', IMO I think it would be better for you to say that every team ASSUMED they knew the rules at the beginning of the season, NOT 'knew' the rules. It was ASSUMED that the rules stated that the top 4 teams will qualify, but what the rules actually stated was that should a team win the CUP but not qualify via their league position, then, the FA ( which in their own website has stated it would choose the champion over the fourth placed team ) can choose the winner and the fourth placed team would be pushed to the UEFA competition. The UEFA made this loophole and 'expected' the English FA to follow precedent set by Real Madrid but were dumb enough not to think the English FA ( made up of people who would have bias reasons for their own teams )would make decisions that were otherwise. Now that they have realised their error( after hoping that they would not be put into such a situation both by the FA and LFC) they are trying to make right the wrong. Another thing about the so called "RULES ARE RULES' , please tell me which part of the so called 'rules are rules' book that states so clearly that and I quote "You cannot change a competitions rules during the competition" un quote.? If the rules cannot be changed whenever there is a NEED( in this case, for the benefit of FOOTBALL) for it to be changed then there is something very very very wrong with such a rule book!!!

As for LFC not being bothered when we were losing to Southampton, Birmingham and Arsenal, I think that is a low blow. The main reason why we lost was probably due to quite the opposite as to not being bothered about the CL. It was probably due to the fact that we WERE bothered about the CL and were playing CL games!!!( all the while carrying a list of injuries that have made records)

Well , I am sorry too, IF, if LFC would be offered a place in the CL competition at the expense of Everton, I would be ashamed and I would think that LFC would graciously decline such an invitation. However, everyone now is working towards having LFC in the competition at no one's expense and with minimal negative impact on anyone. This is because, the UEFA especially have realised that it would be BAD for them and for FOOTBALL not to have the defending champions in the competition. So lets sit back awhile and ponder ... why would anyone be so bent in not letting the defending champions into the competition when there would be a greater interest in it from all sides of football? Why would anyone not let the defending champions in the competition when no one's place would be taken up and no one's profit significantly reduced? If at at LFC is invited to defend it CUP, it will be on MERIT because it was never easy!

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 4:22:00 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Im a liverpool fan, and my feelings are a little split. I havent given much thought about it until this last week, as im still far more concerned with enjoying the fact that we are European Champions THIS year, next year is next year and is not here yet. However, Id like to see us get a 6th Eueopean cup, so would love to see us in it next year. Im not bothered about the money you get for the group stages...you play in these competitions to win them, do you not?

I think that the team that wins the cup should defend their title. Thats not a stupid thing to ask for. I also think, though, that the rules shouldnt be changed on the fly - they should be in place. So, I reckon that the rule should change to consider this for the future, and if we dont get a crack at it in this year, we (as our clearly bitter Evertonian first comment poster suggested) only have ourselves ot blame. We also though have ourselves to blame for winning it this year, which is more than any English bar maybe Chelsea might do next season. So lets spend more time concentrating on what we won and what we have, and if UEFA let us in - great, but if the rules are followed and changed for the future - also great! Everton wont qualify, Man U go out at the forst group stage, and Arsenal are crap in Europe anyway. Chelsea - well, depends how many millions they spend this summer I guess - oh yes, and if they have a fair linesman next time.


At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:05:00 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the FA had the same balls as the spanish Everton wouldn't even be in the comp. Never mind moaning about 5 million. They are lucky they are getting the boat loads of cash the comp brings.

Months ago the FA should have said we will let the winners in the comp at the expence of the fourth placed team. They bottled it and are now winging to let liverpool in. Too little to late

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:47:00 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some valid points by all of you.

But rules are rules and Liverpool should not be allowed into the champions league next season. Liverpool, as everyone else, were fully aware in august exactly what was required of them to gain entry into next years competiton. After all do Brazil not have to qualify for the next world cup? Of course they do! Do Greece not have to qualify for the next Euro's? Of course they do! And there is no international petition to allow them automatic entry either.

The chief exec of the FA, Brian Barwick, said "It was an extraordinary match, with an extraordinary result, which deserves an extraordinary decision". Was he implying that if Liverpool had won on penalties after a dull 0-0 draw, we wouldn't be having this debate right now? Of course not. But he, just as everyone else, is riding the crest of the wave after witnessing probably the most amazing match in the history of the game.

Yes the law is an ass, yes it should be changed, no it shouldn't changed until the qualification criteria for the 2006/2007 competition is set. Qualification for that competition starts this year effectively making the champions league a 2 year competition with the 'finals' being held next season.

As little ago as April, Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez was saying that "they must finish fourth and that qualifying for next years competiton was more important than winning this years". He knew, as did everyone else, what WAS REQUIRED for qualification. What's changed??

Was the plan, upon realising that they could not snatch fourt place, to win the competition then apply pressure via their friends in G14 to have them included this year

As for the FA website quote. If you had actually bothered to read the website then you could make an informed point. However the facts are.

On the UEFA website it states "Only four teams may represent England in the champions league. If the winners finish outside of the top four in the premier league then, AT THE REQUEST of the FA then the title holders may enter at the expense of the fourth placed team who would enter the UEFA cup".

The FA's website echoed this when it said "if the decision was made to allow the title holders in to the competition then the fourth placed team would be entered into the UEFA cup". The FA has exercised it's right to not devalue it's own competiton and stick to the original criteria.

Why did nobody oppose this rule this time last year? Did last years to four not believe that they were good enough to win the competion? Or were they just too arrogant to believe that they would not qualify this year?

Is it because Liverpool are members of european football's version of the Masons. Is it not G14's sole purpose to look after their own? What about the rest of europe's football clubs?

I believe that the holders must be allowed to defend their trophy but the rules cannot be changed at this stage. This should have been adressed when Real won the trophy in 2000. Why wasn't the rule changed then?

The spanish FA caved under pressure and demoted Zaragoza to the UEFA cup, a blow they have not recovered from. If Real were not Real then the Spanish FA may have forced the issue with UEFA and maybe been a little less spineless.

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 7:31:00 am, Anonymous Oeysan said...

Let me just start by telling that I'm from Norway and yes I'm a devoted Liverpool fan.
There is no need for another team to be pushed out of the CL, like Zaragoza was in 2000.
If a team from Norway (yeah right) would win the CL then Norway would get three teams in
the next year CL. The problem is that the "four-team-rule" prevents this. The rule was
made so it would be an Euro-league and not a spain-italy-england-league. In my opinion the
best solution for this predicament would be that LFC got the choice; either pay the other four
teams £5million each and play in the next year CL... Or, play in the UEFA cup.


At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:20:00 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are really two questions here: what the rules should be in general and whether they should be applied in future or to next season's qualification.

Regarding letting the Champions back into the competition, I've yet to see a coherent argument to explain how any team deserves to enter next years competition more than the reigning champions. Never mind the fourth placed team. It's almost like Everton have won something, when you hear people commenting on this. Saying fourth placed qualified last year and should therefore always go back in is equivalent in my mind to asking why fifth placed doesn't go into the Champions League. The answer is: well done, you've done well, but somebody else did better. Tough Luck.

People throw in the recent decision to make the World Cup Champions qualify, a ruling which is entirely irrelevant, given that the reasoning was that the Champions were suffering from the lack of competitive matches.

If you accept that the Champions deserve to reenter the next competition it is imho complete pedantry to say "ah yes but the rule shouldn't be applied half way through a competition". Firstly it isn't half way through a competition, it starts in another 6 odd months time. And if the rules need to be changed they should apply immediately. Either Liverpool and all future champions deserve to be put back in or none of them do.

And this market share thing is all rather sordid really.

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:26:00 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fact you won it.Fact 5th is not good enough to be in it!

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:22:00 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

After all do Brazil not have to qualify for the next world cup? Of course they do! Do Greece not have to qualify for the next Euro's?????

This is a competition where there is NO mention at all over qualification by way of defending champions... whereas in the Champions league there is mention of it. How would you compare two different set of rules? One states nothing about ANY country being automatic qualifiers while the other states that if you are from certain countries then then the domestic FA would have to decide whether or not one can qualify?

Yes the law is an ass, yes it should be changed, no it shouldn't changed until the qualification criteria for the 2006/2007 competition is set.????

This is probably due to RULE 1.a sub-section 4 of your rule book , right? Again, if there is any mentioned of how and why a rule cannot be changed at all or there is a time frame , please, please, please let us know where in this so "set in stone rules are rules" book it is! Even when we all agree that something should be changed. Why should it be changed? Is there is a valid reason why it should be changed?

The FA's website echoed this when it said "if the decision was made to allow the title holders in to the competition then the fourth placed team would be entered into the UEFA cup".??????

Nope, they did not mention such nonsense, rather, they gave a clear example of how they would choose a champion over the fourth placed team... and have sinced changed their minds(as we all know for various bias reasons) resulting in the removal of the example.

This (the FA stating that they would choose the champions over the fourth placed team) was not opposed as it was deemed reasonable to allow the champions in over the fourth placed team.

So again, I have to ask all those who have said rules are rules and are set in stone and whatever, are we so blind as to not to see the reason for which a rule has been made in the first place? Why was the RED traffic light rule made? The rule that a vehicle should stop when there is a RED light, was so that there was some control over the traffic. What happens if there is something wrong with that rule? (in that it does not takeinto account ALL probabilitilies) What happens if the RED light at a certain junction is faulty and never changes to green AND there is NO traffic at that junction?
Poor old Jack would stick to the rules until there is a new set of rules right? After all, RULES ARE RULES!!! sheeeesshh
A poor example maybe but the point being when there is no opposition to a better solution, lets work towards it instead of being stuck on rules.

As for FACTS.... it should be stated clearly that 5th is not good enough UNLESS one wins the Champions League Cup AND gets its FA to back down on its own words to CHOOSE champions over 4th placing.

At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:39:00 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If this was Man U would everybody be up in alms? The red side of merseyside would be a million strong in opposition. Just as they were when United were allowed to swerve the FA Cup to compete in the World Club Championships in South America. There was no 'sympathy' for Man Utd then was there? Especially as they were the FA Cup holders. They were not expected to 'defend their title'

Get over it, you started the season knowing 5th place was JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Congratulations to Everton for effectively 'winning the league' behind the big three. Of which, Liverpool are not one.

At Monday, June 13, 2005 1:50:00 am, Blogger weenie said...

Am overjoyed at the decision that the Scousers can take part in the CL. If the decision had been no, then I would have been disappointed but not devastated.
At the end of the day, there were no contingency plans for this scenario so the rules were just WAITING to be changed or broken...AGAIN! We made history that day when we won it - who says we can't win it again next year! :D

At Thursday, June 16, 2005 3:31:00 am, Blogger Cyres Inc. said...

Se observarmos as regras estabelecidas pela UEFA quanto a quem deve participar da próxima edição, inevitavelmente o Liverpool estaria fora. É uma injustiça agora querer incluí-lo sob pena de excluir um outro clube que, inicialmente, teria direito a vaga.

Realmente, não há nenhuma regra estabelecendo que os Reds deveriam defender seu título, ou seja qual equipe fosse.

Qual país então perderia uma vaga na próxima Champions? Teria uma equipe a mais ou viraria um motivo para aumentar ainda mais o número de integrantes do torneio continental?

O bom senso indica que o Liverpool merece disputar a Champions League na próxima temporada, só que este bom senso geralmente deixa de existir quando falamos de regras estabelecidas.

Em um dos comentários anteriores, citam Brasil e Grécia como exemplos claros de que um determinado clube ou seleção pode, mas não de maneira obrigatória, defender sua condição de campeão.

O Liverpool já tentou defender sua condição de "integrante" da Champions League, mas fracassou num campeonato inglês que permitia quatro vagas. E ele não foi competente o bastante para conquistar uma destas.

Peço desculpas por postar em português, já que se postasse em inglês, teria maiores dificuldades em expor minha opinião, já que não domino bem o idioma.

Sou do Brasil e tenho um blog sobre futebol brasileiro, geralmente comparando-o com o cenário mundial:

Cyres Futebol and Business

Convido a todos da equipe de vosso blog a visitarem o meu e comentarem (mesmo em inglês). Estarei adicionando o vosso blog em minha lista de blogs amigos. Peço que façam o mesmo.

Agradeço desde já.


Wagner Gomes

At Monday, June 20, 2005 6:21:00 pm, Blogger weenie said...

Hear hear!


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